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Ravenkallen
12-13-2011, 10:49 PM
First off let me say that this is NOT a invitation for political debate as people from both sides of the fence are taking place in this atrocity. Illegal downloading should be addressed, but this is a gross violation of our rights! SOPA(Stop Online Piracy Act) may have good intentions(Probably not), but they do not understand the consequences of this bill should it be passed. It could literally rip up the Internet and possibly even hurt diplomatic ties with other countries. There would also be a stream of indirect effects as well, all while not really stopping illegal downloading. Proxy servers, encrypted data, direct IP connections, mirrors and other tricks can be employed to circumvent this law easily. The Internet is the greatest tool mankind has devised. A whole civilizations worth of information available to the common man. And even if the all the doomsday scenarios don't come to pass now, this bill will have opened the door for future ilk. It will have set a precedent. It is our duty as Americans, as humans to protect this precious resource and maintain one of the last bastions of true free speech. Google, Facebook, Yahoo, ACLU and many others have joined our ranks, will you?

http://fightforthefuture.org/pipa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act


Ken or moderators... This post is in no way trying to interfere with forum rules. If you deem it to be in violation, remove this thread and accept my apology.

Publison
12-13-2011, 11:17 PM
First off let me say that this is NOT a invitation for political debate as people from both sides of the fence are taking place in this atrocity. Illegal downloading should be addressed, but this is a gross violation of our rights! SOPA(Stop Online Piracy Act) may have good intentions(Probably not), but they do not understand the consequences of this bill should it be passed. It could literally rip up the Internet and possibly even hurt diplomatic ties with other countries. There would also be a stream of indirect effects as well, all while not really stopping illegal downloading. Proxy servers, encrypted data, direct IP connections, mirrors and other tricks can be employed to circumvent this law easily. The Internet is the greatest tool mankind has devised. A whole civilizations worth of information available to the common man. And even if the all the doomsday scenarios don't come to pass now, this bill will have opened the door for future ilk. It will have set a precedent. It is our duty as Americans, as humans to protect this precious resource and maintain one of the last bastions of true free speech. Google, Facebook, Yahoo, ACLU and many others have joined our ranks, will you?

http://fightforthefuture.org/pipa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act


Ken or moderators... This post is in no way trying to interfere with forum rules. If you deem it to be in violation, remove this thread and accept my apology.

I'm really not sure what the problem is. They are addressing piracy and copyrighted material down loads.

How is this going to take the Internet down.


The bill expands the ability of U.S. law enforcement and copyright holders to fight online trafficking in copyrighted intellectual property and counterfeit goods

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
12-14-2011, 12:35 AM
I'm really not sure what the problem is.
The bill would give the government power to seize domains without due process, at the behest of "rights holders", by interfering directly with the DNS registry. That's bad both technically and constitutionally and sets a bad precedent for other countries to follow -- and they will. It could spell the end to the open internet if carried to its logical conclusion. If something like this slides by for copyright purposes, it'll be that much easier to tack on other reasons to censor at a later date. It is truly a slippery slope.

-Phil

sam_sam_sam
12-14-2011, 12:40 AM
The bill would give the government power to seize domains without due process, at the behest of "rights holders", by interfering directly with the DNS registry. That's bad both technically and constitutionally and sets a bad precedent for other countries to follow -- and they will. It could spell the end to the open internet if carried to its logical conclusion. If something like this slides by for copyright purposes, it'll be that much easier to tack on other reasons to censor at a later date. It is truly a slippery slope.

-Phil

I see this as a REAL problem as well

sam_sam_sam
12-14-2011, 12:44 AM
They are addressing piracy and copyrighted material down loads


I agree with you that is a REAL problem in this country and around the world.....> but to me this is not the way to solve this problem

Peter KG6LSE
12-14-2011, 12:48 AM
Raven you are spot on ..

The issue is give them a inch you know full well they will take a mile .. .
we are far better off with Just the DCMA laws .. were those not enough to be the end all back many moons ago .?????


and really what are they stopping .......

when one can hold a TON of data on a micro SD card and hide it in coins and "spare some change "....

32GB holds quite a few items ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneakernet

If I had $1 in change I would have 128GB of data ......


need I say more ..

no offense but If the dudes on the hill had a remote Idea of HOW the web works they would know better .. but most dont so they are suckerd in to junk like this bill.

1You have a act that is done ( DLing files )
2 If there is a law against it then there can be a sentience handed out ( the DCMA and others )
3 the offender is then handed the sentience . Fines Jail Ect .



#3 is where the error is .. for some reason we don't hand out the right sentience .
$$$ is not working .. most cant afford a $300K judgment .. so most don't pay and PASS GO and go to jail .
the seizing is one way .. but with the web how it is you can pack up shop in a few minits and head to a diff server ..
what we need is a way to enforce the law that is at hand .
perhaps banning the user From owning a computer ?/

Kevin Mitnnick anyone?? ,,, 80s dude .

and really is it too hard to do due process for a offender ....
is this the the witch trials ?


MPAA is a association ,, since when did associations have this much controll ??.... they should not ...
its up to the content owner to sue and deal with it..
both of the AA's are a union of studios whom are way too big for there pants ....

I pay for all my stuff as I can .. as a Consumer I can say a DVD is worth my $5 at wallmart .
so I get quite a few DVDs from the $5 bin ..

I get my legal DVD and I the film biz makes a profit at some point .. we are all happy !

ahd YES I do understand profit margins.. but I have a feeling that DVDs are quite well padded .



till the day I die .Ill allwas say its a Price point deal ...

look at the BS2 .. its not a cheap chip .. but its got "value ".. EG we have YOU ! on this cool forum ..And we have this fantastic company to help us too.. so WE as a builder and a user some how decided that we were to use the BS2 It "fit the bill"


at some point the market will find its balance point ..and on my moms name I KNOW that a large chunk of the issue is price .
same for CDs and SW too..
ya know why I don't use Photoshop .. its casue $600+ for what is fancy GIMP is not worth it .
Or why I don't Own MS word . I use OOO..value .

IF Photoshop was $200 for a normal use license and ir was not a cut version I would gladly had over my $$ to adobe .
but its not .. so I use graphic converter ( like $60 or so ) and gimp (free)..








Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. —Tanenbaum, Andrew S. (1996). Computer Networks. New Jersey: Prentice-Hall. p. 83. ISBN 0-13-349945-6.


off that sneaker net wiki


have the following example:
Boeing 747-400 carrying capacity in cargo configuration, in cubic meters:159
Volume of 3.5" Drive (102mm x 25mm) in cubic meters: 0.00255
Number of 3.5 Drives per 747: 62,353
Data capacity of 3.5 Drive (TB): 3
Data capacity of 747 in Gigabytes:187,059,000
bits per byte: 8
In Gigabits: 1,496,472,000
Distance between LAX and JFK in km: 3,983
Speed of a Boeing 747-400, in knots: 507 (940 km/h)
Time to fly between LAX and JFK at 507 knots, in seconds: 15,254
Bandwidth of the 747 in Gbits/Second: 98,103
So our 747-enhanced Sneakernet Bandwidth: 98 Terabits per second

again , the web not needed for data ! just for latency..
Peter

GordonMcComb
12-14-2011, 01:29 AM
The bill would give the government power to seize domains without due process

I'm pretty sure this provision was removed in the current bill, though it was in the original that died in committee last year. I'm not going to take sides here (though I do have an opinion), but I know a number of the complaints against SOPA are old ones from the previous bill, and the language has since been changed.

The true "slippery slope" is the possible repealing of the safe harbor language in the DMCA, which is what gives the file locker, video streaming, and other sites the immunity to offer terrabytes of "user uploaded" content without having to face copyright scrutiny. SOPA (or some hashed-out version) is probably better than dismantling the safe harbor provisions of DMCA completely.

So people understand how this works, should the bill become law, the Justice Department still has to promulgate regulations to enforce it, which is where the finite language comes in. Industry is more than capable of influencing the government lawyers who write the regulations.

-- Gordon

Roy Eltham
12-14-2011, 02:01 AM
DMCA gets misused constantly by the entertainment industry. This law WILL get misused as well, and misuse of this law equals even more severe censorship than the misuse of the DMCA.

We simply have no reason at all to trust the entertainment industry in any way. They have proven over and over that they do not care about their artists, creators, or customers. All they care about is retaining complete control over all uses (even fair uses, and even references such as in critical reviews) of their IP at whatever cost (including the profits that should be going to the actual IP creators).

Even the current revision has terrible provisions that allow sites to be effectively destroyed without due process at the entertainment industries whim. Do not sit back and say "oh it's all been rewritten now and is not so bad", because it was all completely horrendous and no amount of massaging makes it suddenly good or acceptable.

GordonMcComb
12-14-2011, 02:42 AM
ALL laws are misused, given the right lawyers. Sadly, that's how it works.

So you know, I'm not the "entertainment industry," and yet my income from my creative works is maybe 10% of what it was in 2000. I'm an individual artist trying to make a living for his family. I have no lobbyists working on my behalf, no lawyers sending out DMCA takedown notices for me, no industry trade groups that represent me in Washington. Or anywhere, for that matter.

For a time I even gave up writing because I couldn't make a decent wage, thanks to the proliferation of file locker sites, torrents, and so on. I only returned to it recently because I saw a business model that I could live with. I have yet to actually see any money with this new model, but hopefully in time it will come.

I'm not thrilled by some of the language in SOPA, but I have looked at some of the claims people are making about it, and compared the actual text of the proposed law, and wondered what they were smoking. Is it a bad law? I really don't know. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but the law is a reaction to a real and actual problem. Perhaps it's an over reach, but at the same time, how do you stop some guy in eastern Europe from setting up an ebook download site -- with PayPal payments to make the downloads go faster, no less. Believe it, these guys makes lots of money with these sites. And DMCA notices go unheeded.

There are no easy answers, but remember that for every MPAA or RIAA that pretends to but doesn't represent individual artists, there ARE individual artists who'd like to see something done. I don't know what that something is, and it's probably not SOPA, but it would be nice to once again write something and have the reward go to me, and not some huckster running a server farm in some country 12,000 miles away.

So, I see lots about what's wrong with SOPA. Forgetting the media empires and record labels, what *would* help people like me? I'd really like to know. I don't see many other serious alternatives being proposed.

-- Gordon

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
12-14-2011, 03:24 AM
I started in business writing mail-order software for the TRS-80 and picked up a bit of a following due to a related magazine column I was writing at the time. One day I got some "fan mail" from an admirer in Chicago stating that one of my programs was the most popular program among his computer club members. 'Problem was, I had never sold any programs in the Chicago area, nor did I have any dealers at the time. What this indicated to me was that my business model was flawed, since I was swimming against a current that I had no chance of overcoming. Consequently, I've since forsaken a pure software play as a profit center, in favor of hardware, combined with the software it runs on.

I guess my point is that the entertainment industry is still trying to protect and shore up a buggy-whip business in an era of horseless carriages. They will ultimately lose that fight. The only question is how much collateral damage they will wreak in the process of prolonging the inevitable. Studies have shown that access to free music/movies/software promotes eventual sales, rather than retarding them. The problem with the entertainment industry and other intellectual "property" (and I do mean that in quotes) holders is that they want it all, and to hell with anyone who gets in their way. There's a maxim on Wall Street that also applies here: "Bulls win, bears win, and pigs lose."

-Phil

ctwardell
12-14-2011, 03:45 AM
There's a maxim on Wall Street that also applies here: "Bulls win, bears win, and pigs lose."

So anyone wanting to protect their intellectual property is a pig?

C.W.

Ravenkallen
12-14-2011, 04:04 AM
@All... I do acknowledge that something has to be done to stem the tide of piracy and illegal downloading. This is especially true of foreign countries that are counterfeiting our goods and media and profiting off it. But to settle for the first flawed plan is really naive. The laws that are in place now are not the best, but they are better than nothing if done right...

This is coming from somebody that has NEVER downloaded anything illegally and never will. I just think it is wrong. Pirating is stealing and my own morals hold me back(Not a law). Phil made a very good point about seeing content online before buying it. I always do that! Before i buy a CD or a song off Amazon, i always go to YouTube and look up the artist first. If i like them, then i buy their music. I respect a artist enough to purchase their art and not rip it off... Now, of course everybody else may not follow those guidelines, but they should. Gordon here is a artist of some sort, imagine being in his shoes. I can understand why it could make him mad that his work is plagiarized. It would make me mad to, but i would realize that there is always going to be lawbreakers, as there will always be the majority who follow the law. I guess one could say the same thing about gun ownership, sure their will always be a few wackos that shouldn't have firearms, but that shouldn't bar law abiding citizens the right to bear arms? I guess the question is, should one evil be defeated with an even greater evil?

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
12-14-2011, 04:27 AM
So anyone wanting to protect their intellectual property is a pig?
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. The term "property" entails some notion of scarcity. IOW to get a piece of property, you have to obtain it from someone who already has it, because it can't just me made out of thin air. The problem with intellectual so-called "property" is that, nowadays, it can be replicated from thin air, with almost zero effort. The approach of the entertainment industry to this sea change of capability is to do everything they can to shore up a crumbling and unsupportable business model with ever more draconian measures, using their lackeys in the government as mafia-style enforcers. In this capacity and in the capacity of cheating the artists who provide their content, yes, they truly are pigs.

In an economy where scarcity can no longer be controlled artificially, despite the most desperate measures of industry and government, there needs to be a new paradigm that rewards creativity without stifling innovation or criminalizing the natural and completely inevitable tendencies of people to enjoy the products of that creativity with the least effort and personal cost. Many artists have discovered that, by circumventing the big labels and giving some of their music away, they can reap rewards that compete favorably with what the labels might have paid them. Whatever form it takes, though, a new paradigm will come, and I'm sure that the big labels and our government will make that birthing process as painful as they possibly can.

-Phil

frank freedman
12-14-2011, 06:06 AM
The problem with SOPA is that a politician in order to appear to "do something" will create a half-assed bill, cobbled together by staffers from very knowing to totally ignorant and then hash it out into something worse than Frankenstein. No attention paid to the unintended consequences at all. More sand in the economic engine....

I have no problem paying for value. From its owner. Or in the case of utube, putting up with streams of ads. I would suggest the RIAA suits look to that model for a cash cow. Just like TV almost used to be..... I buy my DVDs or watch them on Netflix. Why should I be forced to use m$ or Crapple to enjoy something I legitimately bought and paid for the right to use? It is all about value. If it is valued, it will be purchased. If not it will go away.

As to the foreign server farms? Well take China, who the f cares? No one over there would have been paying for your stuff anyway. On the other hand if people here were more honest, they would not be obtaining all the counterfeit, copy-infringed, BS from those dishonest sites. To many are wrapped up in the appearances of "having" a thing to seem what they are not. Denial is a sad thing when copying a work from overseas shysters is considered more or less ok as compared to say sticking a DVD in your jacket and walking out of the "evil big box-mart". Who is kidding who?

Government needs to get the 7734 out of the way of legitimate users of the net and stop the pirate sites. People need a basic understanding of right and wrong first.

As to SOPA, let it pass. There are so many constitutional abuses already identified, it will either be tied up in court forever or simply struck down. More time wasted More lawyers getting paid...... Well that is at least some sort of economic stimulus to the legal industry, courts and municipal employees running and maintaining them, office supply companies, notaries, couriers, relief for postal workers..... wow, a stimulus that may work!!!! Can't have that now can we?

Frank

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
12-14-2011, 06:52 AM
The problem with SOPA is that a politician in order to appear to "do something" will create a half-assed bill, cobbled together by staffers from very knowing to totally ignorant and then hash it out into something worse than Frankenstein.
If only. Unfortunately, a typical bill these days is written by the very industry groups that it benefits, then rubber-stamped by congressional committees who invite shills for those groups to tesitfy on the proposed bill's behalf. From committee, the bill hits the House and Senate floors, where campaign recipients of the same industry groups' largesse vote their conscience (tee hee). It's a crooked game with a stacked deck, and we, "the people," are the chumps.

As to a sense of right and wrong when it comes to piracy and what constitutes stealing, that seems more defined by statute than by the greater public's moral compass. Lately, that compass seems to be swinging more toward the Jeffersonian take on intellectual property (http://www.ed.uiuc.edu/wp/copyright-2002/ipfaqs.html#5):


If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density at any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.

Yet, if we expect studios, say, to spend millions making such awe-inspiring creations as Avatar and Puss 'n' Boots, they need some form of guarantee that their investments will pay off before falling into a de facto public domain due to piracy. But turning otherwise law-abiding citizens into criminals for copyright infringements and trampling the rule of law and due process can't be the answer, as much as the content owners might like it to be.

-Phil

Jorge P
12-14-2011, 07:12 AM
The law is pointless, provisions and laws are already in place. Instead, the actual FCC laws and regulations should actually start being enforced. The FCC is currently the task force that has the power to put piracy to an end, online at least, as they govern communications. Their first step should be to get after the Internet Service Providers to stop allowing illegal material to flow through their networks by using hash algorithms. That's just for the internet part of Piracy.

Then, what about people who downloaded pirated material who do not know or realize it is pirated? They would most likely be put in jail and possibly prison unless they can prove their innocence in a court of law. That's why the ISP's should be blocking certain hashed files from their entire network. It is the ISP's that are allowing it to continue! They can easily stop it without consuming taxpayer dollars and wasting time in congress.

As for actual CD's and DVD's. There is a serial number on every one produced, If there is an issue or question as to its legality the manufacturer will have the resources necessary to verify its authenticity. Microsoft has this ability, their top Support Techs will ask for this serial number and verify it within a few minutes!

Maybe Microsoft should produce this technology to a more open market and resell it to Software, CD, and DVD manufacturers.

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
12-14-2011, 07:24 AM
Oh gosh, I would hate to see ISPs burdened with enforcing copyright. From a legal standpoint, they are (or should be) regulated as common carriers, IOW agnostic conduits for the data they carry:


♪ You must remember this:
A bit is just a bit,
A byte is just a byte.
The fundamental things apply,
As data goes by. ♪

(That falls under the Fair Use doctrine, doesn't it? :) )

Besides, most ISPs can barely keep their networks up and operating reliably, let alone act as net traffic cops.

-Phil

Loopy Byteloose
12-14-2011, 11:10 AM
It all seems so bizarre. George Orwell's "1984" had not computers, just typewritters. And Dick Tracy never had it so good as a modern day iPhone user. And yet, the powers-that-be want to go futher than tracking down criminals by GPS, their computer logs, and such.

In some ways, it is all a bit of future shock that we are now so enmeshed in technology that we might wake up this Christmas and find out we are all Cyborgs.

I see in the news that many universities are buying up .xxx site names defensively to protect the virtues of their coed population.

Shawn Lowe
12-14-2011, 02:06 PM
One of the less serious issues this bill would affect is Esports. There is a guy with the name of Huskystarcraft who is really into a game called "Starcraft 2". He is so into that he will telecast games, as a announcer. These are fun to watch. Under SOPA, this would become technically illegal. Of course would could argue "Why would the company prosecute someone who is increase knowledge of our product, and possible increasing our revenue."

Because once its a law, someone can and will. SOPA is,IMHO, illconceived.

Oldbitcollector (Jeff)
12-14-2011, 08:11 PM
It's fine to talk about this publicly, but more important that you make contact with those who represent you...

It takes 10mins of your time to make a couple phone calls and let them know you disapprove of PROTECT IP/SOPA (Be polite! Staff members are working the phones and will take these messages for you.)

http://www.senate.gov/index.htm

OBC

Peter KG6LSE
12-14-2011, 10:02 PM
Jeff this is SO true ..


mail and phone and email .. dont Give up ..

My people here in Iowa know .

Peter.

icepuck
12-15-2011, 12:08 AM
Here's an interview with Kevin
http://revision3.com/hak5/misslewhistle
-dan

Oldbitcollector (Jeff)
12-15-2011, 09:45 PM
Debated live now...

Drop this into your favorite media player..
http://mfile.akamai.com/65764/live/reflector:39480.asx?bkup=39655&prop=n

OBC

Ravenkallen
12-16-2011, 02:08 AM
Has anybody heard anything yet? Google news says they are still debating it?

Ravenkallen
12-24-2011, 04:44 AM
Adam Savage(Popular TV show host and DIY-er) has now joined in on the fight... Congress has put off the vote again, which means that this is still a very real threat.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/mythbusters/articles/mythbuster-adam-savage-sopa-could-destroy-the-internet-as-we-know-it-6620300

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
12-24-2011, 05:01 AM
Based on the CSPAN coverage I watched, the way Chmn. Smith wielded the gavel, and the direction that the voting on amendments was biased, I expect this bill to escape from committee to the house floor nearly intact. It's up to voters in every district to contact their congressmen and register their disapproval. They do listen. Just remember to be respectful and explain why you think it's a bad bill. ("'Cause I wanna keep downloading music for free," probably won't cut it. :) )

-Phil