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Humanoido
12-29-2009, 06:28 PM
Can you tell me if anyone has made printed circuit boards in three dimensions, i.e. in mathematical shapes with curves? To minimize challenges with the chip plane, a 44-Pin QFN Chip and a retainer could be used.

Leon
12-29-2009, 07:37 PM
I've had large PCBs made that were bowed so badly in both planes that they didn't fit in the rack. I never checked to see what function the shape was, though.

Flexible PCBs could be constrained to fit many mathematical functions. I can't think what use it would be, though.

Leon

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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM

Post Edited (Leon) : 12/29/2009 11:46:21 AM GMT

TonyWaite
12-29-2009, 09:00 PM
Flexi or flexi-rigid PCB's are an established technology, but dramatically more expensive than the usual rigid ones.

It's easier mechanically to have areas of stiffening in the design, ie a rigid area to place the components, with the flexible areas handling the interconnect.

I've only used them where there was no alternative spacewise; but you have to be really careful with the mechanical design regarding bend radii etc and understanding the consequences of flexibility or movement or reliability suffers.

Regards,

T o n y

Humanoido
12-29-2009, 11:36 PM
Curving can be constrained to that typical of OPTICS and EMR to comply with 4th order differential curves. I would start with a simple curve at first. Eventually the project would use a multidimension of EMR conducted by the prop chips. Simple PLANAR curving is the most easy to achieve. However, at the moment, I'm more interested in compounding curves. The idea is to dimensionally stratify the Prop chips in higher density with a more rapid hierarchy of EMR communication that follows the physical laws of optics. This could break the barriers set by previous tree dimension tactics - obsoleting a twelve dimensional hypercube for example. Some interesting illustrations follow.

Post Edited (humanoido) : 12/29/2009 3:50:21 PM GMT

Leon
12-30-2009, 12:05 AM
What on earth does that gobbledygook mean?

Leon

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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM

heater
12-30-2009, 12:17 AM
What?

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For me, the past is not over yet.

Humanoido
12-30-2009, 12:30 AM
Leon: I am attempting to marry the field of optics, curved space, and EMR, with the prop chip for a faster way of "networking" hundreds, even thousands of prop signals simultaneously. If it works, maybe future desktop supercomputers can run faster, cooler, and need no circuit paths. I built a few simple examples in 2000 using the BASIC Stamp which were successful (not posted), but the Propeller chip has features to make the project even more attractive and feature-laden, so I have re-initiated the work. Having curved PCBs would make everything much more simple, though maybe not so easy to explain. To define propagation and fields, there are differential curves already derived for space time. There are already laws of optics. This can simplify the geometry for curving boards. Except I have no process for making curved boards, hence the question about how to make a dimensionally curved board. Reheating the polymer substrate will warp the board but do some awful things to the existing pathways. It is likely these pathways will mostly be eliminated but I would like to retain some pathways for minimalistic circuits to include eeprom, etc. and have some mounting positions intact, the propeller chip included. The diagrams show this is not a simple case of bending a two dimensional board. I hope this explanation helps.

Leon
12-30-2009, 12:45 AM
It's still gobbledygook! I don't see the relevance of optics, unless you are using optical comms. As for curved space, you need a very strong gravitational field for that, and I can't see how that would be relevant, either.

Leon

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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM

Post Edited (Leon) : 12/29/2009 4:53:30 PM GMT

Humanoido
12-30-2009, 01:00 AM
What?

Leon
12-30-2009, 01:02 AM
Hpw do you propose to curve space, then, if you don't use gravity? The only other way is with an accelerating system, which Einstein showed is equivalent to gravitation.

If you want to build a massively parallel system, there are much better devices than the Propeller.

Leon

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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM

Humanoido
12-30-2009, 01:08 AM
Leon: The curved space is represented by the printed circuit board. It's an analogy. How to curve it is the question I asked you.

Leon
12-30-2009, 01:26 AM
But why do you need a curved PCB? A flat PCB can accommodate any connection topology one can imagine, from a simple systolic array to a multi-dimensional hypercube or a torus.

Leon

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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM

Post Edited (Leon) : 12/29/2009 10:41:25 PM GMT

pacman
12-30-2009, 06:20 AM
Whilst not curved (and definitely not optics) I do recall that one of the supercomputers in the mid 80's was using a ring topology with it's circuit boards. IIRC the 'logic' was that the electrons would have less distance to travel and thus the machine could run faster. At the time I remember thinking "how cool is that!" - They probably wern't the first to use that technology (but I was young{ish} and only just getting onto computers..

Though the PCB's were flat (like normal) they were curved (like a piece of slot car track).

Instead of a curved surface, could you get away with a series of flat boards arranged in a sphere? (much like a 20 {or more} sided die?)

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=================
The future is in our hands.
Which way to the future?
=================

Martin Hodge
12-30-2009, 06:23 AM
I curve my PCB's using synnergystic synaptitudes with poly-limitric cragameeses. You you can align the phase induced impedance with a hysteresis matched soldering tip...

A little fairy dust and yetti poop will get things moving nicely.

James Long
12-30-2009, 06:48 AM
LOL.........

I hate to say it...but that is funny. You guys crack me up.

I think Humanoid was being serious........I took it that way.

I see what you are getting at, but I don't think there is a way to implement it. Even Flex PCB are going to have restrictions. So a compound curve is probably never going to happen, without some major bucks spent to do it. A compound curve will never sit flat (without relief cuts), so having one made would be extremely difficult and expensive.

Interesting twist (no pun intended).......but probably not feasible.

James L

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James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services (http://www.lil-brother.com)

Are you addicted to technology or Micro-controllers..... then checkout the forums at Savage Circuits (http://www.savagecircuits.com). Learn to build your own Gizmos!

TonyWaite
12-30-2009, 07:18 AM
To answer the question seriously: if you needed to make such a 3D interconnect then the following would work:
- define the detail of the lattice using a 3D CAD model;
- micro-fabricate the resulting 3D matrix in titanium using laser sintering;
- plate with an insulating layer using plasma-deposition;
- build a conductive layer similarly;
- etch out the unwanted interconnect using 3D laser ablation;
All of the above is doable with existing lab technology.

Regards,

T o n y

Toby Seckshund
12-30-2009, 07:22 AM
I have a sick bunny, could the parameters be retuned. There is a shortage of Yetis over here (but not according to HER ).

Fairy dust and a stick, with a star on it, was my Christmas wish, saves lugging around a toolbox, and thinking.

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Style and grace : Nil point

Post Edited (Toby Seckshund) : 12/30/2009 10:34:37 AM GMT

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
12-30-2009, 07:26 AM
The Propeller is fast, but not so fast that connection topology has to be mimicked in fabrication geometry. Even one of the Cray supercomputers, whose mechanical geometry resembled the folds of the brain's cerebral cortex used flat circuit boards. Anything else would be an escapist flight of fancy — and an expensive one at that.

-Phil

kwinn
12-30-2009, 07:36 AM
The Cray supercomputer I think you are talking about had it's boards mounted radially with the backplane towards the center of the circle. This was done to reduce the distance signals had to travel and allow adequate airflow for cooling.

ElectricAye
12-30-2009, 07:48 AM
Feeding sea urchins lots and lots of silver and copper and tin???

I've heard some fungi will deposit heavy metals into their cell walls, and the growth patterns for some of these are phototaxic and/or galvanotaxic.

Why not grow your next circuit?

Humanoido
12-30-2009, 12:01 PM
In review of some postings, I cannot stop laughing, yes, please send one package of Fairy Dust and Yetti droppings. If it's cracked up to what you claim, it could save light years of project time and increase garden vegetable yields to supply the entire world this winter. After feeding the world and curing hunger, we can stop war, perpetuate peace, obsolete sickness (taking care of Toby's sick bunny) and old age, let money grow on trees, and travel beyond the stars to enlist in the Alien Exchange Program.

Seriously though, there was an article about growing computers and circuits using ideas from DNA and crystals in respective solutions. Was it in Scientific American or Science Digest? It seems it would take time to develop this technology and crystal growing techniques are somewhat limited. It could be a future project though, to grow some simple pathways on dimensional printed circuit substrates, and components. I am sure someone is already working on this. :)

Certainly the Cray put new ideas into actual use, and reducing wire length was a critical and important aspect of gaining speed. Nothing says that will be the important and critical aspect of using a Propeller chip. The prop has other features and attributes. I think everyone knows that prop speed by itself is not going to set a supercomputer speed record today. However, consider hybrid technology where the sum of the two techniques is greater than the one.

Although one could go the CAD route in three dimensional etching "routering" techniques for manufacturing and repeatability with precision, and even though it is possible to cheaply go with a store bought substrate and a paint-on copper clad kit so to speak, the idea came up for a less expensive approach. After some prudent shopping, there are a number of products with compounded curves, cubes, spheres, toroidal cores, etc. that are pre-made can be purchased off the shelf cheaply. The circuit pathways can be localized to a smaller point and affixed to the curve. A hole can be drilled from the obverse side to feed through and in that way, reflectance etc. can honor the original pathways and the curved surface. If the islands are reduced toward infinitesimally small sizes, layered or whatever, high densities can be achieved.

I have one project to complete and may begin a prototype of this to show a working model. Building it is one thing, programming it in Assembler is another. How is your prop assembler programming skill?

James Long
12-30-2009, 12:08 PM
humanoido said...
How is your prop assembler programming skill?


Ha I can answer that for myself..........NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!

Wow.......I thought I got deep into projects.........

(background check here......my wife says I always dive way to deep into the small interests I get into. She says I take a small project and turn it into a life long adventure, studying the past, present and future of things remotely relevant to what I'm working on. She states, "that's why you learn a lot but finish little.")

James L

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James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services (http://www.lil-brother.com)

Are you addicted to technology or Micro-controllers..... then checkout the forums at Savage Circuits (http://www.savagecircuits.com). Learn to build your own Gizmos!

Humanoido
12-30-2009, 12:23 PM
James Long said...
(background check here......my wife says I always dive way to deep into the small interests I get into. She says I take a small project and turn it into a life long adventure, studying the past, present and future of things remotely relevant to what I'm working on. She states, "that's why you learn a lot but finish little.")
What an intelligent wife - some people have all the luck! She knows that great scientist minds often turn projects into a lifetime adventure. Take for example, Albert Einstein. Even as a small child, he was envisioning how it would be possible to travel on a light beam. Later in life, as an adult, he gave us the laws of time travel based on the speed of light and he showed how gravity can bend light.

James Long
12-30-2009, 12:33 PM
humanoido said...

James Long said...
(background check here......my wife says I always dive way to deep into the small interests I get into. She says I take a small project and turn it into a life long adventure, studying the past, present and future of things remotely relevant to what I'm working on. She states, "that's why you learn a lot but finish little.")
What an intelligent wife - some people have all the luck! She knows that great scientist minds often turn projects into a lifetime adventure. Take for example, Albert Einstein. Even as a small child, he was envisioning how it would be possible to travel on a light beam. Later in life, as an adult, he gave us the laws of time travel based on the speed of light and he showed how gravity can bend light.


What is funny.......after 16 years (wow....funny she put up with me that long), she now knows how to "steer" me in a direction to get results.

I have to say......she is quite intelligent for someone who is not technology minded. I got her a Stamp education kit for her birthday. She is reluctant to get past the "hello world!" part.

I try to push her (gently) but she isn't moving much on it. I remind her every now and then to see if more progress could be made. It hasn't worked yet.

I should enlist people from here to inspire her. I don't want her to do anything but enjoy herself. She has a great mind.

James L

Now back on topic.

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James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services (http://www.lil-brother.com)

Are you addicted to technology or Micro-controllers..... then checkout the forums at Savage Circuits (http://www.savagecircuits.com). Learn to build your own Gizmos!

kwinn
12-30-2009, 01:13 PM
@humanido, we already grow computers. The problem is it is very difficult and takes many years to program them, and quite often they do not want to accept the programming.

While we can connect computing nodes in a variety of architectures (arrays, cubes, hypercubes, etc) to produce supercomputers we are unfortunately limited to building them in 3 dimensions. That means our interconnect wiring may get rather long as the number of computers increases.

As much as I like the prop (awesome chip for I/O and control tasks) I would not use it if I were to spend the time, money, and effort to design a supercomputer of any kind. Probably one of the graphics GPU's, an Intel/AMD/or similar chip and 1 to 4 gig of ram per node.

Martin Hodge
12-30-2009, 01:17 PM
Apologies. I really thought it was a joke. I've been marveling recently at all the "free energy magnet motor" videos on youtube and jumped to conclusions. Shows what I know. Just an hour ago I erroneously spent an entire 90 seconds trying, with ardor, to solder a joint with a spool of insulated hookup wire... "Damn, this solder sucks"

eiplanner
12-30-2009, 02:37 PM
Humanoido,

I'm hearing you, but I think you are starting in the wrong place. The magnificent ideas you have for warping the circuit boards in such a manner to accommodate

a specific supercomputer array of prop chips is sort of like making the wagon faster and more durable when there are already more highly advanced automobiles

in the world. The designs you are considering will no doubt be incorporated someday at the silicon or crystal level. The will be put into form on a microscopic plane

and not so much the large component level that you are speaking of.

pacman
12-30-2009, 06:15 PM
One other idea I've seen recently is something called "Circuit in Plastic"

Basically it was a plastic substrate (that could be any shape) with the tracks laid on it (sort of like tin foil wrapped around a mould) then you encase the whole thing in plastic again.


So you could do a lens or a ball or some sort of weird plastic impeller with truly embedded electronics.

follow the link to see more...www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s2616421.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s2616421.htm)

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=================
The future is in our hands.
Which way to the future?
=================

ErNa
12-30-2009, 06:27 PM
Hello, the year comes to an end, and this task will surely not be solved this year! But, there are interesting thoughts popping up. The first is: it makes no sense. so this is the best starting point to make no mistakes: put something together, see what happens. The prop gives you 8 cogs and means to establish communication. So 2nd: create a software which transparently communicates from cog to cog. Attach a LED to a prop and a phototransistor: slaughter an optoswitch from an old floppy drive. 3rd: mount the props to moving platform. 4th: by sending messages via the led and receiving the messages, the individual props can start to move and arrange themselves to communicate with as much others as they like. Install mirrors to ceiling and walls. Replace the mirrors by moving mirrors from a laser show. And let control the props those mirrors. You will create a living community, watch, what's going and report "the daily soap" to us here in the forum.
Happy New Year, ErNa

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cmapspublic3.ihmc.us:80/servlet/SBReadResourceServlet?rid=1181572927203_421963583_ 5511&partName=htmltext (http://cmapspublic3.ihmc.us:80/servlet/SBReadResourceServlet?rid=1181572927203_421963583_ 5511&partName=htmltext)
Hello Rest Of The World
Hello Debris
Install a propeller and blow them away http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

heater
12-30-2009, 07:29 PM
I can't for the life of me get the point of all this multi-dimensional curved space-time Propeller layout idea but...

...the idea of an arrangement of PCB tiles into some platonic solid, say an icosahedron, with a Prop sitting in the middle of each facet surrounded by multi coloured LEDs, sensors and shining polished ground plane like some demented Sputnik is starting to appeal to me.

Lets see, 20 Props at 10 euro each plus sensors, LEDS and PCBs....nah not going to happen here.

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For me, the past is not over yet.

ErNa
12-30-2009, 09:28 PM
A hobby just a hobby. The propeller allows hobbyist to solve problem on the go, which some scientist believe to be unsolvable. It is just a question to answer: I have a propeller, so what to do. I have 20 propellers: what to do? It is like having a magnet: a magnet, a sheet of paper, a coin, and children are bewitched. Have 20 magnets and put them onto a fridge, and you can study the behavior of a multi-particle system with bipolar interaction. Put them on a table, keep them from flipping and make stray experiments with magnetic monopols. Discover, that dipols become monopoles, if you have a potential, that keep them from flipping. Yes, it's not going to happen here. It happens already! ErNa
p.s. How could I ever imagine to emulate a z80 on a prop?

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cmapspublic3.ihmc.us:80/servlet/SBReadResourceServlet?rid=1181572927203_421963583_ 5511&partName=htmltext (http://cmapspublic3.ihmc.us:80/servlet/SBReadResourceServlet?rid=1181572927203_421963583_ 5511&partName=htmltext)
Hello Rest Of The World
Hello Debris
Install a propeller and blow them away http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

heater
12-30-2009, 09:31 PM
ErNa: "How could I ever imagine to emulate a z80 on a prop?"

You are very lucky that you did not:)

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For me, the past is not over yet.

Humanoido
12-31-2009, 01:30 PM
eiplanner said...
Humanoido, I'm hearing you, but I think you are starting in the wrong place. The magnificent ideas you have for warping the circuit boards in such a manner to accommodate a specific supercomputer array of prop chips is sort of like making the wagon faster and more durable when there are already more highly advanced automobiles in the world. The designs you are considering will no doubt be incorporated someday at the silicon or crystal level. The will be put into form on a microscopic plane and not so much the large component level that you are speaking of.
I also hear you. First I want to thank you for your input regarding this project. Undoubtedly the ideas can be used within the well-visioned structures you cite. I simply create these projects as a hobby and for fun, and may never have access to the expensive technological subnano level manufacturing processes you speak of. Working on much larger scales enables everyone to enjoy and create and have fun with some of these concepts, now, and on a shoestring budget I might add. Your analogy is an interesting one. I agree, there was a time when there were only wagons. It was then, someone came along and invented Boolean Algebra, the basis of every modern day computer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Boole said...
George Boole (2 November 1815 – 8 December 1864) was an English mathematician and philosopher. As the inventor of Boolean logic—the basis of modern digital computer logic—Boole is regarded in hindsight as a founder of the field of computer science.

eiplanner
01-03-2010, 03:04 AM
Humanoido,

Enough said. I suppose I took the original post too seriously. From a hobby perspective, it is a fantastically fun and creative project.
Browsing through some of your other projects (Basic Stamp Supercomputers), I now see exactly where you are coming from with this idea.
I was amazed with your work and wanted to start on one of my own immediately. I am light years behind you and most others on this site,
but thank you for the inspiration!

Back on topic. In considering a new design and seeing your already completed stamp towers, I was wondering if you chose the spacing
of the boards on purpose or if that was just to match the standoffs you used? It seems to me that by using individuals stamps without the boards,
you could mount them side by side 3 across and two down to get 6 chips on a board close to 3" square. Stack 3 of these boards with .75" spacing
and an additional 4th board on top with the serial ports for communications at the same spacing to achieve 18 stamps in a 3" cube. Copper tubing
could be used as power buses vertically through the boards. Right angle headers could line the outside edges of the boards for access to all the I/O's.
Other than possibly creating a more aesthetically interesting design, the stamps own footprint would limit gaining much more close proximity even
with morphing the boards.

eiplanner
01-03-2010, 03:08 AM
Ooops! I used the stamps in my post instead of the Prop. Can't figure out how to edit and change. Had the stamps on the brain from
viewing the stamp towers and got off on a tangent. My example should work pretty close to the same with the Props as well.

Sorry...

tonyp12
01-03-2010, 04:42 AM
http://www.math.uky.edu/~rbrown/courses/ma310.s.09/unfolded_soccer.jpg
use the soccer ball pattern and you get a near round pbc

James Long
01-03-2010, 05:19 AM
tonyp12 said...
http://www.math.uky.edu/~rbrown/courses/ma310.s.09/unfolded_soccer.jpg
use the soccer ball pattern and you get a near round pbc


Very interesting......I hadn't thought of that.

How did you get the pattern?

James L

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James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services (http://www.lil-brother.com)

Are you addicted to technology or Micro-controllers..... then checkout the forums at Savage Circuits (http://www.savagecircuits.com). Learn to build your own Gizmos!

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
01-03-2010, 06:43 AM
James,

Follow the image link back to its origin...

-Phil

Humanoido
01-03-2010, 07:20 AM
That soccer ball pattern clicked in my mind as resembling the genetic code Rafiki model for visualizing information in a CODON. As you can see, there is a pattern of genetic identifiers, and the model can be created by cutting and folding the pattern in 3D. Likewise, this is similar to GEODESIC patterns in some astronomical observatory domes.

http://www.codefun.com/Images/Genetic/seeing/image031.jpg

Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/2/2010 11:27:08 PM GMT

Humanoido
01-03-2010, 07:48 AM
There are others, but not all are as easy to visualize or reproduce in a PCB form. For example, "Cyclic permutations of nucleotide triplets are the basic informative structure within the molecular system of protein synthesis. The Rafiki map is useful because it unifies all visualization techniques through a mathematically unbiased contextual network of cyclic permutations. To begin a process of visualizing information, consider a simple street map of your hometown. It is laid out on flat paper, but our razor-sharp human intelligence quickly understands that the shapes on the paper translate into a three-dimensional town of much greater size. ‘Mapping’ is a process of correlating two versions of informative reality. It is a form of code.

It is only slightly tougher to imagine that the orthogonal, two-dimensional information on a map is merely a subset of a vastly larger set of information on the surface of a sphere. Our street map is but a tiny window into a surface that wraps around a gigantic sphere – the earth. The fact that this information is scaled down, cut into a square and flattened onto a plane is of no concern whatsoever. The useful information the map contains is hardly affected by such transformations. However, the same cannot be said of the genetic code and protein synthesis. Transformations here are all important, if only to recognize that they have occurred in our textbooks and our thinking."


http://www.codefun.com/Images/Genetic/Max/image020.jpg

Humanoido
01-03-2010, 12:33 PM
In the Rafiki model, each pentogram can hold five Propeller chips. Since there are twelve pentagrams, a total of sixty prop chips can fit onto this three dimensional printed circuit board. There is a formula construction to vary the parameters, thus the physical dynamics of the chip can be made to fit each pentagram. The design, while representative of a curved surface, contains flats which can be etched using conventional low cost copper clad technology, then formed as pieces of a puzzle to transform from 2D to 3D. The geodesic would follow a similar transform.

Variations on a Theme
Geodesic Star Dome Example
http://www.gardendome.com/star_dome2c_model1.GIF

For higher densities
In the second illustration, below, the geodesic concept is expanded to created six primary pentagrams with twenty bisecting divisions resulting in a three dimensional printed circuit board to hold a total of 120 Propeller chips.

http://www.gardendome.com/sd2c_model.GIF

Construction is proceeding with a design that places the Propeller chips on the outside in sockets. I felt this was best since there are ways to piggyback prop chips, doubling the circuit board density at only a slightly larger (few percent) diameter of the board. I am not so sure that the terminology "board" applies here since we are now dealing with the diameter of an inscribed/circumscribed sphere. But indeed, subfacets are still boards, easy to make and relatively easy to mount.

Piggyback
The technique of Piggyback will turn the 60 piece board into a 120 prop board with 960 cores, while the 120 propeller board transforms into 240 chips with 1,920 cores. Can you think of some uses for 1,920 cores?

Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/3/2010 4:38:27 AM GMT

RobertW
01-03-2010, 12:53 PM
Humanoido,
I'll start by staying that I may be missing the point and may be speaking beyond what is currently do able. If you are looking for a curved form as you originally asked for, it may be able to be generated out of a fiber type material. I am thinking something like fiberglass or carbon composite. Then plate and etch the necessary circuit pattern. I'm not sure if that is realistic or not. I also don't know the cost, how the components would be attached to a non-flat surface, and your budget. Just a thought.

Humanoido
01-03-2010, 01:46 PM
RobertW: This is certainly on the point. In car body modeling technology, a foam core form is typically constructed and the fiberglass is built up on top. It would be a matter of forming the core, which is one process key, to some desired differential curve. I have formed fiberglass spherical domes, differential curves, and resin telescope tubes of various cylindrical sizes so there is some familiarity with this procedure. What would be even more interesting is the method to deposit a layer of copper onto the fiberglass for etching in a large deep tank. Attaching components depends on the shape of the component, the depth of the pins, and the position in the curve differential. For this design, the solution enlists the use of long pinned wire wrap sockets that easily traverse the various curve depths. This allows the geometrically longer DIP Propeller chip a means of simple and economical connection.

RobertW
01-04-2010, 12:46 AM
Humanoido,
What is the approximate size of the curved form you are looking for? Depending on the size, someone could turn your form on a lathe, creating a mandrel which the 'PCB' material could be deposited on. I don't know how PCBs are currently plated but you could probably find a way. You might be able to then use the mandrel and PCB assembly to laser etch the traces into the copper layer. If possible, this would elimiate the need to create a pattern and chemical etch the traces. Just a thought. Again, I don't know the physical size of the project nor the budget.

Humanoido
01-04-2010, 07:43 PM
RobertW: the size is directly proportional to the number of Propeller chips in the circuit. I'm sure a newer prototype is going to use a small number of chips, maybe less than 10, with the second proto less than 50, and the main model increasingly larger. The original concept was done with a handful of BASIC Stamps. An intermediate POC was constructed with Penguin Robots because the BS2px has increasing line capabilities and you can do just about anything with a Penguin kit. Now the project is moved forward with Propellers for MIPS reasons and other potentials.

As an update, I have "kitchen shopped" and found additional cheap low cost material forms (preformed) that can be used for the project. This is the budget range of the project. One thought about laser etching, is that the projection of trace is literally projected onto the curve. Mathematically, there is a shape consideration when doing so. The ideal plan would be to rotate the laser with the same formula as the curve, thus positioning without any "parallax positional" effects. So this would introduce some complexity and require special machinery. The question that still remains, is there a simple technique to coat plastic and gain significant adherence.

KenBash
01-05-2010, 01:36 AM
I have no idea how fancy geometry like this would actually benefit the performance of the Propeller, however... the propeller is a "Supercomputer" on a chip given the technology that some of us grew up with, ( what would the Apollo program have given for a couple of (space hardened) Propellers ? )

We have already seen that looking back to technology concepts that worked in the "early days" has it's place even here in the future. The propeller itself is a "Throwback" to some of those ideas. I have little doubt that "everything old is new again" will keep coming around ad infinitum.

I introduced a friend to the propeller the other day, he is doing research in optical computing where geometry DOES play an important role in performance, funny thing, after a brief explanation of some of the optical computing concepts, it dawned on me that he was building and analog computer with a digital front end. If analog computers can make a comeback, then I have little doubt that computers shaped like soccer balls, hypercubes or Kline bottles can have their place in "The brave new world".

As for flexible circuits, I have to agree with some of the other people out there that unless movement is actually necessary, then some shape ( possibly the hex) where the edges can be easily soldered together will probably make the most sense. I have used this same concept to build 3D circuit boards (for placement of optical sensors, not performance). However, if someone out there TRULY needs flexible circuitry, I work with medical silicone and am currently doing research into embedding circuitry into highly flexible shapes. If you have a project with a real need, let's talk.

Another manufacturing option to consider is ceramic or glass. I have built circuitry on everyday, run of mill ceramic tiles by using gold and silver decorative inks that fire into conductive traces. Once on the ceramic substrate, you can plate copper or nickel onto these traces to increase current capacity and solderability. The only reason to consider this is for heat or mechanical stability. However, GLASS has another interesting possibility: Optical clarity. If you have circuitry in layers with interconnects, you can send data back and forth using traditional methods but Glass (or clear plastic) opens up the possibility of communicating optically between layers or even ACROSS layers, ( think of the soccer ball with concentric layers on top of each other ) Lasers or even simple LED's could be used to communicate optically. Lasers to link to specific processors, Led's to "Broadcast" to all processors within view.

If you make alternate "Panes" of the soccer ball optical shutters ( LCD screens ) This architecture begins to resemble the three dimensional interconnects of the brain and nuro-networks operating very similar to their biological counterparts. It becomes possible to inhibit or pass messages between layers as gated by each layers programming. You can use some of the other interesting properties of light to take this concept one stage further. Light and dark are of course digital, but SHADES of light and dark begin to open up analog computing possibilities. The next stage is use of COLOR. Transmission of data optically makes it possible to add color as part of the address scheme. Some computers in the network might have BLUE filters that pass only BLUE light to each other, some Green, red, etc. This begins to warp the three dimensional space into 4 or 5 dimensional communications and computation ability.

I have to admit... when I first started reading this link I was in agreement with some of the other comments about the real world need of building circuitry with 3D shapes, but when you couple it with some "out of the box" or more appropriate: " Off the 2d surface" thinking, it begins to make sense.



Places like this forum are where ideas with world changing potential are going to be given their first breath of life. It is places like this that we HAVE to be able to throw out ideas that may seem really screwball at first. I have to give humanoido credit for taking the comments in stride.

Ok... here's one: Let's use Jello as the circuit substrate! It's optically transparent, flexible, additions of impurities might allow "Growing" conductive pathways. It may be possible to manipulate interconnections or even move circuitry while in operation. All us 2d Von Neumann types will eventually have to learn to think in different ways and gee... everything old is new again... Mother nature has been experimenting with this one for a while now.

KB.

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" Anything worth doing... is worth overdoing. "

иииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииии ( R.A.H. )
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Humanoido
01-06-2010, 01:15 PM
KenBash: lots of interesting things in your remarkable post. Now you have me thinking about jello. If you take out some of the basic ingredients of jello, such as the sugar and coloring, that leaves a gelatin and water mix, and the protein-rich collagen derivatives. I can see there would be complete control over the density of the jello substrate as well as regulation of the light transmissive properties, and some growth potential.

Gelatin is obtainable in small packets for experimentation. The substrate could hold a new kind of pathway. This could be a "suspension circuit path," embedded in the substrate, in some multiple dimension fashion. I can imagine there might be a variety of ways to create processes to not only embed circuits but mold various curvatures, all inexpensively. Thinking out of the box again, the pathways would not be conductive of electricity, but rather contain light tunneling, resembling the methods of transmission and reception through fiber optics.

You could curve the jello like the curvature of the Universe to form worm-holes for faster access to other points in space-time curvature. The advantage here is not only the access time, but the fact that the curvatures can hold a higher density of individual Propeller chips, up on the curve, on its "underbelly," or even inside the invisible borderlines. Here's the formula to get started... recipes.howstuffworks.com/question557.htm (http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/question557.htm)



Jell-O consists of four basic ingredients:

1. gelatin
2. water
3. sugar or artificial sweetener and artificial flavors
4. food coloring

Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/6/2010 5:36:01 AM GMT

Humanoido
01-06-2010, 02:28 PM
The Snub-Cube polyhedron is another shape possibility for a three dimensional circuit board, with left and right handed versions. With proportional scaling, it can host 38 Propeller chips. Traces run along polyhedron surfaces, obverses, or embed within the substrate. The site below provides images for creating a model.

www.korthalsaltes.com/model.php?name_en=snub%20cube (http://www.korthalsaltes.com/model.php?name_en=snub%20cube)

Snub Cube:
Number of faces: 38
Number of edges: 60
Number of vertices: 24

http://www.korthalsaltes.com/gif1/snub_cube_l.gif

Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/6/2010 6:35:34 AM GMT

Toby Seckshund
01-06-2010, 05:11 PM
All this Origami is so simular to my "xxxBlade" comment of, as we have had the cigarette packet, the matchbox the next cardboard receptical (entering the curved world) will have to be a bog roll centre.

And dont go putting all those props onto all those pentagrams. All that power may well surcome to the darker forces.

Yes I am bored at work, again. It has been snowing again, more than 4 flakes, NATIONAL DISASTER !!!!!

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Style and grace : Nil point

KenBash
01-07-2010, 03:27 AM
Humanaido,

Like removing the sugar and colored flavorings... removing the name "Jello" and calling it a "Colloidal Suspension" ups the "respectability a bit (probably would look better on a grant proposal as well ) but the idea of liquids associated with electronics isn't as far-fetched as what some may think. Batteries have been with us for a while in different forms, different chemical makeups. Some capacitors, and probably a few other things I haven't heard of also make use of "Wet" materials. Some computers have been submersed in non-conductive liquids for cooling. Laser cavities are often cooled with distilled water. There is even a patent out there for a dye laser made from something pretty close to Jello.
Most of us are familiar with liquid crystals... ( LCD ) who's to say that the properties of a JLS (Jello Like Substance) won't be useful to create the next generation of processors.

There are chips out there that are essentially phased array microwave generators. By steering the beams of two or more chips, the energy at the intersections might become sufficient melt Jello, Lasers are another obvious possibility. It is entirely feasible to consider melting tunnels in the JLS to create 3D pipes. Using UV cure plastics with impurities is another possibility for systems that "Grow" interconnects, lasers, light gates and even new transistors in place according to their "Learning". I most certainly won't be doing it, but some bright little colloidal processor is out there right now being programmed who will.

KB

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" Anything worth doing... is worth overdoing. "

иииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииииии ( R.A.H. )
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Toby Seckshund
01-07-2010, 04:32 AM
Exactly right, stick with the posh names for everything and funding will be assured. A friend, at Cardiff Uni at the time, wanted a new kettle and washing up bowl for the workshop. This was rejected immediately, so the waited a few days and requested a low preasure steam generator and a medium pnumatic trough. Instant approval and with the higher value of the new purchace order a curry and a few pints were had.

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Style and grace : Nil point

mctrivia
01-07-2010, 09:17 AM
your 3d board would probably work well if you were designing an optical computer where the computing is done optically but the delay to convert data to light and back again on such a macro system would destroy any advantages of distance.

As for density. I compute on a 6.2" radius sphere I could place aproximently 450 props with optical comunication. max signal distance 24"

A 10"x10"10" cube has the same volume and I can place 4012 props in a 12 dimensional hyper cube. max signal length 20"

The hyper cube has more processing power and shorter signal length.

On a 18" radius sphere i could get the same 4012 props but now with max signal length of 72"

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24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder. (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=848975)

Humanoido
01-07-2010, 12:52 PM
mctrivia said...
your 3d board would probably work well if you were designing an optical computer where the computing is done optically but the delay to convert data to light and back again on such a macro system would destroy any advantages of distance.
Excellent point. It is true that a computer design which is both optical and the more base electrical requires some time for the transformation. However, there are other considerations in the overall net that provide advantages, that speed up access times. If a computer can be accessed faster, it may even outweigh the speed of conversion.


mctrivia said...
As for density. I compute on a 6.2" radius sphere I could place aproximently 450 props with optical comunication. max signal distance 24".

A 10"x10"10" cube has the same volume and I can place 4012 props in a 12 dimensional hyper cube. max signal length 20"

The hyper cube has more processing power and shorter signal length.

On a 18" radius sphere i could get the same 4012 props but now with max signal length of 72"

This is very useful to gain ideas about prop density based on shape and spherical diameters. On these calculations, how are the props mounted? I have found that although inscribed props of high density are theoretically possible, in actual practice a method of access is required, at least at the hobby level. The means we need a little more space to make the connections.

humanoido

Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/7/2010 4:57:24 AM GMT

mctrivia
01-07-2010, 12:56 PM
I am assuming surface mount parts in which case only 1 sq inch is needed per prop.

The hyper cube would be easy to build the optical sphere would be hard.

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24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder. (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=848975)

Humanoido
01-07-2010, 02:22 PM
The first 3D Board
Models will shed some light on the subject. I am now experimenting with the first model - a 29 centimeter Chinese Edo Coscinodiscus construct in multiple dimensions (3D space = x, y, z, plus time). It is relatively easy to inscribe props, making exterior curved connections, or by "light wiring" inside the Coscinodiscus. E-Do in China provides home articles made by Fujian Nanan Xinyuan Plastic Co., Ltd. (I was not joking about shopping for kitchen supplies to keep the cost down) The last two shelf stocked perforated polymer screening shapes were purchased for about a dollar and 30 cents each, in the kitchen section of Merry Mart. The model is based on microscopic marine diatoms such as Coscinodiscus Wailesii Gran & Angst. It is interesting to find this by shopping the kitchen section of a common store. It's one example of a great technological find, that can be used for alternate applications.

http://forums.parallax.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=66507

This is my first esoteric 3D Propeller Proto Board using a polymer Coscinodiscus Diatomic dimensional perforated model. The first 9 props are shown, though the Proto can inscribe more than 30 DIPs in the first layer. SMT can triple or quadruple this number per layer. DIP processors are used because they are easy to handle and readily illustrate the concept. Applications developed for this shape are primarily optical, i.e, internally it is wired with light, and externally it can be wired with multi-dimensional conductive pathways.

humanoido

Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/7/2010 6:43:05 AM GMT

Humanoido
01-07-2010, 10:43 PM
Any suggestions for a name? Every time I call the board 3D, someone thinks it has something to do with graphics and 3D glasses and imaging...

BradC
01-07-2010, 10:53 PM
humanoido said...
Any suggestions for a name? Every time I call the board 3D, someone thinks it has something to do with graphics and 3D glasses and imaging...


Post edited. My mother always said if you don't have anything constructive to say, don't say anything.. so I'm saying nothing :)

Interesting concept.. can you make it work?

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Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.

Post Edited (BradC) : 1/7/2010 2:59:26 PM GMT

Humanoido
01-08-2010, 10:05 AM
BradC said...
My mother always said if you don't have anything constructive to say, don't say anything.. so I'm saying nothing :) Interesting concept.. can you make it work?
It was an earlier post where I mentioned there is a working model already built from BASIC Stamps. I think the important aspect in this project, re: Propeller chip conversions, will be continued translation of PBASIC language into SPIN while utilizing advantageous features of each Prop chip in the aggregate. There is definitely a timing differential. The Forum is happy that your Mother taught you values, but really Brad, it is only a simple request for some possible names for the board, nothing really complicated, and it should bring about visions of constructive ideas and not those of destruction. :) I think the "Esoteric 3D Multiple-Propeller Chip Proto Board using Polymer Coscinodiscus Diatomic Dimensional Perforated Model" could have the name of "Dimensional Board - DB" as one possibility, or just use the full name for funding, as specified by Toby.

humanoido

Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/8/2010 2:13:01 AM GMT

BradC
01-08-2010, 11:14 AM
humanoido said...
but really Brad, it is only a simple request for some possible names for the board, nothing really complicated, and it should bring about visions of constructive ideas and not those of destruction.


Indeed. I apologise.. I should know better than to post on a public forum when I'm in one of those moods.. I shall now crawl back into my cave.

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Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.

Humanoido
01-08-2010, 12:15 PM
BradC: Just so you know, we're glad you're here with us and contributing ideas from the technical side of your brain, although I suspect there's a great deal of science equipment in The Cave... There are two new name suggestions that just arrived.

Mighty Multiple Dimension Printed Circuit Board
Mighty Robust Dimension Printed Circuit Board

An update to the Esoteric 3D Multiple-Propeller-Chip Proto Board using Polymer Coscinodiscus Diatomic Dimensional Perforated Model, a duplicate "unit" was added to the bottom (thus dual-diatomic modeling) using temporary plastic clips, doubling the real estate. The existing board became the top. I wanted to do an experiment to know if the "alternate addition" would have the same capability to communicate inside the curved dimension. What I find is that there are two conditions - a clear line of internal optical sight to enable double density, exterior surface area for electrical conductive pathways (and with both, the ability to communicate with all props), so this system also works too! This increases two DIP chip layers from 70 Props into four layers with 140 Props yielding 1,120 cores. In actuality, there is a position of oblate spheroidal concentration near the poles that was not considered for population. I'm sure this could could add a couple Props. Not a large number for this polar addition but every little bit helps.

humanoido

Humanoido
01-08-2010, 04:35 PM
I have another question. When we create printed circuit boards, we use a computer program that helps make the traces onto the top and bottom sides of a printed circuit board. When the board is completed, the traces are conductive and the components are added.

In the multiple dimensional board in this project, I need a different kind of program to figure out the board - one that can draw and show ray traces at any angle in, around, and outside a dimensional shape. That's because there are multiple rays for aiming, focusing and bending, hundreds or thousands of times. The program should be simple and not complicated, i.e. a learning curve of months is out of the question. The program should be freeware. Perhaps someone has experiences with such a program...

Thanks sincerely,
humanoido

mctrivia
01-08-2010, 09:51 PM
Easiest I know is 3d studio max. Took me a week to learn.

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24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder. (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=848975)

swampie777
01-09-2010, 05:44 AM
If the prop chips are mounted on a concave board, the curvature, if too much will run into pin length limitations. That's why the polyhedron ( platonic solids) suggestions are best. If you had two props per facet one on the inside of the polyhedron facet, one on the outside, the inside props could handle the facet to facet communication while the outside props could deal with external I/O. If you nested icosahedrons then the prop density could be additionally increased while still using planar circuit fabrication methods. If pushed you could add enough fiber optic communications to ensure plenty of bandwidth.

A reason for going prop intensive is to effect maximum I/O and control in as small a volume as practical. For the moment the heating problems have been sidelined.

Duffer
01-09-2010, 06:09 AM
Swampie777's idea of "props on both sides of the PCB", is an interesting one. Consider using 12 pentagonal PCBs to form a dodecahedron with Props inside and out. Using one "face" as the base, that leaves 11 faces and 22 Props (not an ideal number)иto integrate.иA lot of the interconnection mess would be hidden on the "inside" of this kind of 3D sculpture (Yes, the heat problem will have to be address eventually).

Respectfully submitted,

Duffer

mctrivia
01-09-2010, 06:26 AM
He was talking about using optical communication. for that the best layout is everything on the outside with no solder mask silver plated bottom. silver oxidizes so you would need to protect it with something though. gold could be used but would bring pcb cost up about $100 for the sphere.

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24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder. (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=848975)

swampie777
01-09-2010, 06:58 AM
Is he talking fiber optic or free space communication?

mctrivia
01-09-2010, 07:40 AM
Free space

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24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder. (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=848975)

Humanoido
01-10-2010, 02:32 AM
If the curved shape is large enough, the section under the chip mount is not a problem and was already addressed in an earlier post.

humanoido

Humanoido
01-10-2010, 04:12 PM
The first board is successfully working quite well and is being refined. Some additional ways to do conductive path etchings are being investigated. These are now made manually, one at a time. I can envision a robot system to deposit the pathways automatically. Now, work is progressing on a second multi dimensional printed circuit board based on a chemical approach to hold the path etchings. There are now two projects going on at the same time if you are following this thread. This second board can also take on various curves and shapes from its original mold, like a shape shifter. It is a chemical board currently based on one mix.

This may be the first chemical multi dimensional board. I will let you know how successfully it works on a larger scale. Don't get your hopes up - it could fail on the larger scale. However, on the smaller scale, the little model is successful. I am waiting to try another larger shape. Today I am molding one smaller dimensional shape for another clarity test, and then will go with the next larger 40ML dimensional board. Another test area will be the propagation of communication in layers through the substrate. As it dries, the properties are notably changeable. If there is a diffusion effect, the amount of permeability will come into play.

humanoido

Humanoido
01-10-2010, 07:53 PM
Multi Dimensional Hyper Curve Chemical Printed Circuit Board for New Hypercomputers
Casting of another chemical dimensional printed circuit board was accomplished tonight. (the use of "printed circuit" is loosely used) Two more are setting and will be put into use tomorrow. The photos shows the boundaries of a dimensional hyper curve, a continually deepening hyperbola to which there is no recovery at its apex. A board like this is used in the new Humanoido Hyper Computer HHC design which is made up of Parallax Propeller chips.

humanoido

http://forums.parallax.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=66605

Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/10/2010 12:11:34 PM GMT

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
01-11-2010, 01:27 AM
It looks like a blurry, posterized photo of a trumpet bell.

-Phil

Leon
01-11-2010, 03:44 AM
It looks like one of those highly magnified images of an everyday object taken from an unusual angle often seen in quizzes that one has to identify.

Leon

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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM

Humanoido
01-11-2010, 05:48 AM
The photo is probably not the best due to the limited lighting, but it's the main one showing the degree of the curve. Since the form is little, as the chemical material was only around 40 ML and had to be divided, the focus was in closeup mode. I have attached another pic which shows more and can give some more points of reference.

As you can see, it's a very nice curve and achieves the original goal well.

humanoido

http://forums.parallax.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=66609

Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/10/2010 9:53:16 PM GMT

Humanoido
01-11-2010, 04:06 PM
re: Multi Dimensional Hyper Curve Chemical Printed Circuit Board for New Hypercomputers
Chemical Mold Set Time
I checked two of the new molds today and after 24 hours the chemical has only partially set. It's dry to to the touch on the outside but clearly still setting on the inside. I'll need to give it another 24 hours to dry. In the mean time, I will make some improvements to the first board design which is not chemical mold based.

humanoido

Humanoido
01-12-2010, 11:34 PM
Some results of creating chemical multiple dimensional printed circuit boards... The recent chemical results are in and appear promising. After 48 hours, the material is mostly dry, though there is some shrinkage inside the mold. One of the shrinkage's caused bubbles that broke on the surface. In one form, the convex shape became concave, and in another form, the concave became convex. Obviously the material is drying from the outside in. This technique can be exploited when shaping the bord during the drying process. While the material is translucent, it is simply too opaque to run communications. The next test is in progress. A larger mold is being created for another chemical. The idea here is not to let the material dry out. So maybe you will need to keep these boards in the refrigerator for storage. Meanwhile, all the tests and prototype for the first "non-chemical" boards are working. After this week, a decision will be made for which board to use.

humanoido

http://forums.parallax.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=66674
Note the anterior is entirely suitable for Propeller chips and traces. The opening gains access to the posterior although this is simply not the caudal end of the form due to its multi dimensional structure.

http://forums.parallax.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=66675
A basic mold showing the results of a chemical dimensional board.

Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/12/2010 3:48:27 PM GMT

VIRAND
01-13-2010, 03:18 PM
@humanoido: Look at the NKS forum and Stephen Wolfram. Tell me, are hypercube supercomputers equivalent to
or transcending a universal turing machine? I would suggest that a one-dimensional computer program could emulate
time sharing multithreading, why not just run each instruction in a hypercube VM on one propeller. It might be slower
than a hyperspace array of them but should produce the same results. Here are some other artifacts I have designed:

A computer-rendered hologram of a spatially 4D object. If necessary, it would be exposed in a sphere.
If the hyperspatial polytope image is mirrored,
then that might be a working crystal ball that reflects orthogonally to beyond all 3 dimensions.

A tesseract shaped electromagnet. I have built a tesseract that has equal length edges in 3 dimensions.
The proposed electromagnet would be wired in a hamiltonian path, or switched rapidly so that each cube face,
or more of them, or all of them, are powered in some order so as to make a rotating 4D motor field winding.
I have demonstrated the tesseract-cube sequencing with luminous EL wire. Google "instructables viron tesseract".
Not having wound the whole 4D electromagnet, I have no idea how it would behave, and if anything unusual
happens, it probably would only be observed if the electromagnet was vaporized to plasma by hundreds of amps
within a millisecond of being powered on. Expected to expand outward and vanish, the plasma could stay in place
and continue working as a 4D electromagnet, or implode, if I'm wrong. It may produce ball lightning or some never
before seen shape of plasma. Who knows, it could even become a black hole or wormhole. It could leave behind
a permanent field of some kind... imagine if iron dust in the air began accumulating into spheres where it vaporized,
which just stayed there for a while until some kind of standing wave of magnetized time dissipated.

And of course a Propeller could be used to render the 4D hologram,
or apply multiphase currents to the windings of the electromagnetic tesseract.

The Propeller can do anything. Anything you tell it to do. Anything you know how to tell it to do.

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VIRAND, If you spent as much time SPINNING as you do Trolling the Forums,
you'd have tons of awesome code to post! (Note to self)

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
01-13-2010, 04:31 PM
VIRAND said...
Tell me, are hypercube supercomputers equivalent to or transcending a universal turing machine?

No computer, regardless of its topology, can do things a Universal Turing Machine cannot. Other computers can do things faster, certainly; but, given enough time, the UTM can do anything the most powerful supercomputer can do. That's why it's called "universal".

-Phil

Humanoido
01-13-2010, 06:00 PM
VIRAND: Absolutely yes, a multi dimensional hyper cube supercomputer can be simulated inside Propeller chips. It will function with a more dilatory time frame than if built from actual hardware - this is the nature of VR.

Before beginning with hardware, I visualized a VR with a multi dimensional curve spread across the multiplicity of cogs. But since I wanted the prop chips (and cogs) attached outside of VR, decided not to go this route, this time. That will give me some time to develop a greater repertoire of programming first, before diving into the indelible water.

I think they were planning to see if a micro graviton was created or a tiny black hole, using the new accelerator. Has anyone heard from those people since that experiment? :)

The 4D electromagnet is an interesting project and perhaps you can proto it, and relate it to a Prop chip and post more information about it. However, to punch an actual hole into the fabric of space time, it will require a tremendous amount of power in the form of some energy such as gravity far greater than what the Earth provides. You could plug some values into Einstein's or Hawking's equations to see if the transformations take place to create a micro black hole or worm hole. You may need some special equipment to observe the actions. You will also need to create one so small, that it won't have any adverse effects. Is that possible?

humanoido

Humanoido
01-13-2010, 06:08 PM
VIRAND said...
A computer-rendered hologram of a spatially 4D object. If necessary, it would be exposed in a sphere.
If the hyperspatial polytope image is mirrored, then that might be a working crystal ball that reflects orthogonally to beyond all 3 dimensions.
Can you create a reflective (in that manner of reflectance off the actual surface of the hologram's parts) hologram? When we made holograms in Physics class, a hologram was "a negative produced by exposing a high-resolution photographic plate, without camera or lens, near a subject illuminated by monochromatic, coherent radiation, as from a laser: when it is placed in a beam of coherent light a true three-dimensional image of the subject is formed." If we can get light to reflect off the actual hologram, then we can create real world interacting holograms, right out of Star Trek.

humanoido

Humanoido
01-14-2010, 04:28 AM
It was a shopping day for more chemicals to try out on a multi dimensional printed circuit board. However, later I did some shopping at the grocery store for food, and I found some Gelatin on the shelf (very surprising), which was quite expensive oddly, and some jello, which was nearly the same cost. (Jello has the same content - some Gelatin, coloring and sugar added) As I looked more carefully, there was a flavor that no one liked (it was lemon), and it was marked down in price, and it was nearly double the weight content amount of the other packages - a bonus. With tongue in cheek, I bought it, but not to eat it. If I remember correctly, at Christmas time when I was little, a tiny jello package could make an entire large bowl of Jello (Is this correct?) and it took on the exact shape of the mold. It also has other benefits of transmitting light. Does anyone remember how long it keeps?

humanoido

Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/13/2010 8:33:35 PM GMT

mctrivia
01-14-2010, 04:33 AM
I think it is 1L per pack but not sure

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24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder. (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=848975)

Humanoido
01-15-2010, 11:42 AM
The current test mix makes 4.5 cups using only a 3.4 ounce box of filling. The filling sets in only 5 minutes which is advantageous, however, this particular set mix of a filling is relatively opaque. The material holds a formed shape that easily allows multi dimensional routing of conductive trace materials which is set by the amount and concentration of added gelatin base. The stability of the material is also under test. Thickening in some substances is achieved by adding Disodium Phosphate and Tetrasodium Pyrophosphate. Foaming is prevented by adding Mono- and Diglycerides.

In the past I had cast a set of telescope mirrors and lenses using clear resin and a machine to spin the form resulting in a parabola shape with gravity and inertial effects. A resin with similar clarity could better serve the purpose of multi dimensional printed circuit board that has requirements of transparency and rigidity of embodiments inclusive of trace patterns and components. (It's a material with greater durability and stability, and likely to hold its shape a longer period of time, and no need to refrigerate.) A similar machine with various rates of spin motion could impart various shapes and curves ranging from oblate spheroids, spheres, parabolas, and hyperbolas, etc. By inducing degrees of off-axis tilt, numerous new shapes are possible.

humanoido

mctrivia
01-15-2010, 11:48 AM
or you could make a mold out of jello and put the resin over that.

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24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder. (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=848975)

Humanoido
01-18-2010, 06:32 PM
mctrivia said...
or you could make a mold out of jello and put the resin over that.

It would be relatively easy and inexpensive to create molds out of Jello, with some considerations.

1) The mold is flexible and not rigid, therefore the hardening material must not resist the form
2) Jello has life expectancy therefore the drying material must complete its cycle within a time frame
3) Molding materials must not be heated or release heat or the water content in jello may be affected

humanoido