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RobotWorkshop
07-15-2009, 08:57 PM
This would make a cool project to create with a Propeller!

http://www.galaxiki.org/web/main/_blog/all/build-your-own-nasa-apollo-landing-computer-no-kidding.shtml

Cluso99
07-15-2009, 10:03 PM
Nice find http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
The prop should do it easily. VGA or TV will do the simulated display cheaply, and a PS2 keyboard with command keys relabled alpha or function keys. http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Hey, what about doing this for the Prop contest ?

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Links to other interesting threads:

· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=786418), RamBlade (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=810753), TwinBlade (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=806697),·SixBlade (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=780033), website (http://bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator) (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=790917)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index) (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=753439)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=778427)) ZiCog (Z80), MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google) (http://search.parallax.com/search?site=parallax&client=parallax&output=xml_no_dtd&proxystylesheet=parallax&proxycustom=<HOME/>&ie=&oe=&lr=)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz (http://www.bluemagic.biz)·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm (http://www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm)

RobotWorkshop
07-15-2009, 10:21 PM
It would be a great project for the Prop contest but I already have some other stuff in the works and one of those could make a nice entry so I'm already set.

Perhaps someone will pick this up and run with it. Just though it was really cool and wanted to pass it along....

Robert

Ale
07-15-2009, 10:22 PM
Very interesting. It does not convince me that they landed on the moon, though.

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Cluso99
07-16-2009, 10:20 AM
A mate found the following about the Apollo computer. The first is from Nasa so watch it first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF-9SyWM1Mw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyhI85Rd1kI

http://forums.parallax.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

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Links to other interesting threads:

· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=786418), RamBlade (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=810753), TwinBlade (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=806697),·SixBlade (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=780033), website (http://bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator) (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=790917)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index) (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=753439)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=778427)) ZiCog (Z80), MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google) (http://search.parallax.com/search?site=parallax&client=parallax&output=xml_no_dtd&proxystylesheet=parallax&proxycustom=<HOME/>&ie=&oe=&lr=)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz (http://www.bluemagic.biz)·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm (http://www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm)

Oldbitcollector (Jeff)
07-16-2009, 10:25 AM
This is very temping for the contest, but I was really trying to get away from
microcomputer prop-projects for a while and branch out. :)

The more I think about it, it would be cool to do the controller's side (RS232 terminal link)
so that two people could play with it.

Must.. resist..doing..this..for..contest....

OBC

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RobotWorkshop
07-16-2009, 11:58 AM
Aww.. Come on now... You would be branching out. This is for a space computer! How cool is that?

An awesome book on the system is on sale at AMAZON:

Digital Apollo: Human and Machine in Spaceflight by David A. Mindell

If you started reading that book you would want to start working on a Prop version and build a mock lander out of cardboard using refrigerator boxes. Ok, maybe I would build the cardboard ship for the kids.....

Robert

waltc
07-16-2009, 12:48 PM
What would be interesting is simulating the landing with a emulated Apollo computer.

Though it probably wouldn't be too hard building one using TTL logic and a couple of NVRAM chips.

Cluso99
07-16-2009, 05:02 PM
Ok, I am just missing the rocket. Where do I get one cheaply. LOL

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Links to other interesting threads:

· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=786418), RamBlade (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=810753), TwinBlade (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=806697),·SixBlade (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=780033), website (http://bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator) (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=790917)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index) (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=753439)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=778427)) ZiCog (Z80), MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google) (http://search.parallax.com/search?site=parallax&client=parallax&output=xml_no_dtd&proxystylesheet=parallax&proxycustom=<HOME/>&ie=&oe=&lr=)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz (http://www.bluemagic.biz)·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm (http://www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm)

heater
07-16-2009, 05:10 PM
Clusso: I think I said it before but "Propellers do not work in space":)

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For me, the past is not over yet.

Oldbitcollector (Jeff)
07-16-2009, 11:29 PM
Cluso99 said...
Ok, I am just missing the rocket. Where do I get one cheaply. LOL


How about a launch location...

Here's one (http://www.missilebases.com/denver). A bargan at only $2,800,000.
(Of course might might be able to stack 400000 Propeller chips you could have purchased and climb.)

OBC

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Ale
07-17-2009, 01:23 AM
OBC: you would only climb 2000 meters

Just emulating the 11 instructions some memory some timers a bit of I/O should suffice... and a real lander of course!

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heater
07-18-2009, 01:04 PM
Ale: "It does not convince me that they landed on the moon, though."

Seems someone is still trying to convince you:

www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/apollosites.html (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/apollosites.html)

Anyway it must be true. I saw it live on T.V. at the time:)

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heater
07-18-2009, 05:27 PM
You might want to take a look at this AGC emulation www.ibiblio.org/apollo/index.html#Running_the_Validation_Suite_ (http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/index.html#Running_the_Validation_Suite_)

I downloaded it, wow, all of a sudden I'm reading the source code of Apollo guidance software written in 1968.

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Cluso99
07-18-2009, 05:48 PM
Conspiracy I say.... They didn't even keep the original moon landing footage!

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Links to other interesting threads:

· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=786418), RamBlade (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=810753), TwinBlade (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=806697),·SixBlade (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=780033), website (http://bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator) (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=790917)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index) (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=753439)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=778427)) ZiCog (Z80), MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google) (http://search.parallax.com/search?site=parallax&client=parallax&output=xml_no_dtd&proxystylesheet=parallax&proxycustom=<HOME/>&ie=&oe=&lr=)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz (http://www.bluemagic.biz)·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm (http://www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm)

heater
07-18-2009, 06:09 PM
Dammit, I promised myself "No more emulators for me" but now you've got me all fired up.

In that package linked above you will find EmbeddedDemo.c which is an example of how to build a minimal AGC emulator engine for embedded systems. Compiling it for Linux results in a ~30Kb executable. Comments there state this is written in very minimalist C that should compile for any platform.

Brilliant, no need to waste months trying to create yet another instruction set emulation in PASM.

So:

1) We need a TriBlade, Morpheous or other Prop board that has external memory.
2) ICC or Catalina to compile that embedded AGC for XMM on the Prop.
3) Probably a second Prop to run the keyboard and seven segment displays.
4) Or a second Prop to run a nice DSKY display in VGA.

Job done:)

I'd love to have authentic looking keyboard and display hardware to go with this.

Edit: Something like this:

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For me, the past is not over yet.

Post Edited (heater) : 7/18/2009 12:13:16 PM GMT

Baggers
07-18-2009, 07:11 PM
Isn't it funny how there are absolutely NO stars in the image?
surely with no atmosphere to block the view of the stars, we'd see them in that pic, considering how much sky would be there! :) lol
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/369227main_aldrinLM_full.jpg

heater said...
Ale: "It does not convince me that they landed on the moon, though."

Seems someone is still trying to convince you:

www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/apollosites.html (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/apollosites.html)

Anyway it must be true. I saw it live on T.V. at the time:)


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heater
07-18-2009, 07:22 PM
How the hell did they ever get back in that pile of junk?

Edit: RobotWorkshop: "...and build a mock lander out of cardboard using refrigerator boxes..."

Looks exactly like that.

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For me, the past is not over yet.

Baggers
07-18-2009, 07:23 PM
Makes you wonder doesn't it, just as well they didn't need much fuel to get off the moons gravitational pull, and slingshot back round the moon and back to earth!

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heater
07-18-2009, 07:40 PM
I've often wondered about that. Specially as only half of what you see there took off from the moon. Of course they had the service module full of gas to blast back to earth as well.

Still it implies to me that given the moons gravity is about 1/6th that of the earth we only need something six times bigger than that to get two guys from earth into earth orbit. Plus some baggage allowance say 12 times. How come we have not made such a thing to jump up and down to the space station?

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For me, the past is not over yet.

Baggers
07-18-2009, 07:49 PM
Don't get me wrong, I do want to believe they've landed on the moon, especially since it was the year I was born... But the more I look at that photo, the more I think how fake it is.

1. No stars.
2. The abrupt end to the horizon with little rocks on it, considering there's no mountain range, surely the horizon should look different to what it's showing.
3. Did they have cameras in those days that could do crystal clear and HD large colour photo's?
3. Buzz's shadow goes to about just under 10 feet away from him, yet the ships goes to the horizon?
4. Why all the different types of foil? gold, copper, and silver?

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heater
07-18-2009, 08:06 PM
Baggers: What's up?

1) No Stars... - In that picture we are looking at an LM with the sun shinning full blast from behind us. Given the lack of atmosphere the LM was incredibly brightly lit with a lot of light reflected back from all that foil and white space suit etc. Therefore the the camera is stopped right down. Therefore the starts are too dim to show up. How many starts do you see driving at night when a car is coming at you with headlamps on full beam?

2) The abrupt end to the horizon... - Don't forget the moon is much smaller than the earth so the horizon is much closer. Any mountains are over the horizon.

3) Did they have cameras. HD large colour photo's... - Yep they did. They were Hasselblads with medium format film (I think) 6cm * 6cm.

www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/catalog/70mm/ (http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/catalog/70mm/)

4) Buzz's shadow... - Goes over a bump and get s lost in the shadow of the LM. Again the horizon is much closer than we are used to.

4) Why all the different types of foil... - Think roasting a chicken in the oven. There is a lot of heat coming from the sun with no atmosphere, better to reflect it. At least that's my guess.

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For me, the past is not over yet.

Baggers
07-18-2009, 08:08 PM
Then it's true :D they landed on the moon :)

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heater
07-18-2009, 08:13 PM
Yep. But whoever it was that went clearly never came back. That chicken shed is not flying anywhere:)

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Baggers
07-18-2009, 08:15 PM
Rofl :D
anyway, I best get back to this prop game while I have some spare time :D

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Baggers
07-18-2009, 08:19 PM
All that technology, and a ZX80 to navigate :D

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heater
07-18-2009, 08:54 PM
Houston, we have a problem.

Already. The AGC's need at least 42KB of RAM to play in. If I remember Catalina can only use the Prop HUB RAM for C variables at the moment.

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Baggers
07-18-2009, 08:56 PM
42KB of RAM, surely that was the size of an office building also?

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Hanno
07-19-2009, 03:10 AM
ViewPort includes a sample program that lands a simulated lunar lander gently on the moon with fuzzy logic.
Here's a video I made:

4 Minute Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4ZIElDoU4E)

The code used in this video is tutorial #6 in your ViewPort installation, so go ahead and try it out!
Hanno

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Download (http://mydancebot.com) a free trial of ViewPort- the premier visual debugger for the Propeller
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CounterRotatingProps
07-19-2009, 03:31 AM
You blokes are funny! 1)

Why then did we American taxpayers pay so much for chicken sheds?!
Well, OK, sure - they were *flying* chicken sheds.
But we get those for FREE in Kansas whenever there's a tornado...

OK, seriously now :-P

> Why all the different types of foil? gold, copper, and silver

Radiation, micrometeor, and - as heater (who I assume knows a thing or two about heat) mentioned - heat shielding.

> is about 1/6th that of the earth we only need something six times bigger

Well, as you note the moon is much smaller than the earth, so besides it mass and thus its gravitational pull being less, the radius also factors in.

consider this Wiki entry:

"Misconception
Planetary or lunar escape velocity is sometimes misunderstood to be the speed a powered vehicle (such as a rocket) must reach to leave orbit; however, this is not the case, as the quoted number is typically the surface escape velocity, and vehicles need never achieve that speed. This surface escape velocity is the speed required for an object to leave the planet if the object is simply projected from the surface of the planet and then left without any more kinetic energy input: in practice the vehicle's propulsion system will continue to provide energy after it has left the surface.

In fact a vehicle can leave the Earth's gravity at any speed. At higher altitudes, the local escape velocity is lower. But at the instant the propulsion stops, the vehicle can only escape if its speed is greater than or equal to the local escape velocity at that position. At sufficiently high altitudes this speed can approach 0. " 2)

(Note the escape velocity tables too!)

__________________________________________________ _____________
1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Moon_Landing_hoax_conspiracy_theories
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity#Misconception
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_assist

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heater
07-19-2009, 07:36 AM
@CounterRotatingProps: Actually since I put forward my idea of the heat shielding I've been looking at that picture some more. Now I wonder why the top half of that machine has no foil shielding. In fact some parts of it are black which I would expect to suck in more heat. Given that is where the guys had to live it seems a bit odd.

What is the misconception about escape velocity? If you want to move an object from the earth's surface to an infinite distance away (i.e. to escape the effect of earth's gravity) you will need to use a certain amount of energy. Lets call it E.

Now, the energy of a moving body is given by 0.5 times its mass times its velocity squared. So you can calculate the velocity required for something moving up from the earth to have energy E. Such that it will never fall back.

But, as you point out, there is no need to ever have that velocity. Lets say there was an infinitely long cable with a winch on the end pulling the object up from the earth at 1cm per second for an infinite time. That would do it also. However the energy put in by the winch is still that same E.

The magic thing about escape velocity is that it is independent of the mass of the object.

Do they still teach Newtonian physics in high school ?

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For me, the past is not over yet.

heater
07-19-2009, 07:46 AM
Hanno: That's very cool. Does it take into account the decreasing mass of the lunar lander as the fuel is consumed? Does it take into account that when the gas is all gone and your are not on (or very near) the ground it's game over?

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For me, the past is not over yet.

BADHABIT
07-19-2009, 12:51 PM
heater said...
Do they still teach Newtonian Physics in high school ?

Not since fuzzy logic was invented

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Hanno
07-24-2009, 06:00 AM
Heater-
Here's the code to land both a "fuzzy-logic" controlled lander, and a human-controlled lander. Currently, it does not take mass/fuel into account. Should take 2 lines of code- want to add them?



repeat 'keep landing forever...
height:=start_height 'initialize lander's height and speed
speed:=start_speed
height2:=start_height 'initialize lander's height and speed
speed2:=start_speed
repeat while height>0
'Fuzzy Control
f.fuzzifyA(height,FMHeight) 'fuzzifies Height into fuzzy register A
f.fuzzifyB(speed ,FMSpeed) 'fuzzifies Speed into fuzzy register B
f.doandRule(FRThrottle) 'calculate new Throttle with ThrottleRule
throttle:=f.defuzzify(FMThrottle)'defuzzify Throttle to a number
f.share(@fuzz) 'share fuzzy result with Viewport

'Physics
speed+=(acc_gravity-throttle)/dt 'moon's gravity increases lander's speed
'throttle decreases speed
height-=speed/dt 'each dt, height decreased by speed/dt
'same for lander #2
speed2+=(acc_gravity-throttle2)/dt
height2-=speed2/dt
waitcnt(cnt+clkfreq/dt) 'wait by dt


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Ale
07-27-2009, 10:06 PM
According to Eureka they landed on '62 but didn't go public till the '69. But how to believe them when everything science-related sucks in that series ?. Well, I love the "ultra-high-tech" oscilloscopes, from the 60s and 70s that pop-up from time to time (Have a look at the last episode). Haven't seen any real top-of-the-class Oszi so far... The Tek 425 must be from the Original Galactica...

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Visit some of my articles at Propeller Wiki:
MATH on the propeller propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH (http://propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH)
pPropQL: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL (http://propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL)
pPropQL020: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020 (http://propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020)
OMU for the pPropQL/020 propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU (http://propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU)